“Mr. Vice President, I’m speaking.”
The rebuke from vice-presidential nominee Kamala Harris at Wednesday’s vice-presidential debate against incumbent Mike Pence was short, but it resonated with women around the world who are often met with interruptions from their male counterparts.
This is not unique to politicians. Across sectors, women combat being talked over or outright ignored while men take centre stage. The Star asked women to share their experiences of times this has happened to them, as well as their advice to their male colleagues on how to have respectful conversations.
Karlyn Percil-Mercieca, CEO of KDPM Consulting Group INC, Certified Emotional Intelligence & Neuro-Life Coach
My experience with men interrupting me in my industry is layered. I have men who have blatantly ignored my assertive interjection. I have also been told that “while it might appear that I am passionate about what I am saying, I have to be careful as I can come across as angry and pushy.” I also have men who allow me to assert myself without interruptions or mansplaining and those who also amplify my voice by acknowledging my contributions when I am in and not in the room. So it is layered and would like to see an increase in the latter.
Advice: As someone who is passionate about behavioural transformation and the science behind why we do what we do, I believe that we need to address the root cause of the issue at hand. Men must first take ownership that this is a problem they have to solve — and while we can bring awareness to it, it is actually their responsibility to start reducing the number of mansplainers we have out there. Create a fantasy hockey, basketball, or football, online garden team (whatever you’re into) and start practising defence so that you can interrupt that patriarchal gender bias. The brain does not like ambiguity — so we need to get specific, 3 tips to reduce and eliminate:
Know your mansplaining score — how many times do you interrupt women — yes actually track it — not to shame you but for you to actually succeed at your goal. You can’t fix what you don’t focus on.
Create a “Crap, I am mansplaining again” code word and get an accountability partner. In selecting an accountability partner, note that the emotional labour should not be on women to help or coach you — get another man to do that — this will increase your chances of actually achieving this goal and most importantly this gives you an opportunity to create a larger peer-to-peer accountability network and community where men can hold each other accountable.
Share your score and talk about the journey with other men — it’s important for men to share the journey and the bumps they will encounter along the way. This can be a great opportunity to build on the power of vulnerability and emotional intelligence. The increase in self-regulation will lead to better self-management and relationship management, not just with us women, but with all other relationships in your life. A win-win for all.
Hannan Mohamud, researcher and law student, University of Ottawa common law program
Existing as a Black, Muslim women in policy and legal spaces, means addressing interruptions, repetitively. However navigating those awkward “I have something to add” interruptions via Zoom is definitely a game changer. I remember in one meeting a colleague interrupted through the chat box the entire time I was presenting because his microphone didn’t work. Zoom certainly has provided innovative ways for interruptions to occur.
Advice: My advice for men is to ask yourself the following questions. Are you adding on to enrich the discussion or are you attempting to correct someone? Thinking about what your intention is will have you quite preoccupied so that when you finally do decide why you are going to speak ... the person is already done speaking.
Shireen Ahmed, freelance sportswriter and podcast host
In my case, men are literally the core of the industry and they have a lot of power. They have a lot of space. So in terms of being on panels and discussions, I usually occupy spaces where men are generally and thoughtful of the disparity. There’s only been one situation when I went on television and the guy had no idea who I was. To him, I was not a sportswriter because of what I look like, being a brown, visibly Muslim woman. But as soon as I started talking, the feeling was that, “Wow, she knows what she’s talking about,” because the assumption was that I didn’t.
There’s also the urban legend of only woman on a panel — or ‘manel’ — and the question is “What’s it like to be a woman in the industry” and a man interrupted her.
Advice: Men are often encouraged to have opinions in sports all the time, whether they’re knowledgable or not, which I think is a product of a society we live in. Women are taught to judge themselves and be critical of other women and self-doubt. Impostor syndrome is a really real thing.
The idea that a man’s opinion is more warranted and necessary is something we need to break down. We need to start crediting women and gender non-conforming identities. We need to start being aware that there’s space for many other opinions and that (men’s) opinions are not the be all and end all, which is the way that this entire industry was formulated and built upon.
I think part of the need comes from insecurity because conversations that are being had in sports whether it’s pay equity, gender analysis and definitely race analysis, they are proving their expertise is so, so limited and their scope and their lens is really not required and relevant in many things these days. So I think speaking over people is a way of asserting their own worth to some degree, and it’s a really bad way to do it.
I’ve a learned a lot in the industry from men, but a particular type of man that doesn’t feel the need to talk over me or that there’s some type of competition because there’s enough space for everyone at the table.
Joy Henderson, child and youth care practitioner and local activist
Doing work within activist spaces, you would think that men would be a little more aware of the space they take up and make an effort to avoid interrupting women. Unfortunately it happens far too often and many men are not doing the work to ensure that they are listening respectfully and engaging meaningfully.
I recall being invited to speak at an education event by a local NDP MPP. Afterwards we broke into groups to discuss education cuts within our community. As I tried to explain my position, I was repeatedly cut off by one of her staffers, who was a younger white man, with no experience in the education sector. I was merely there in my capacity as an education worker, a parent and an education activist, not to mention a member of the same party, but apparently all of that didn’t warrant the respect of not being interrupted consistently and unapologetically.
Advice: My advice to men is to not assume you are the most qualified person in the room with the most important thing to say. Do not discount the lived experience and wisdom of people even if you are the most qualified on paper. In activist spaces, interrupting spoils the quality of the team. You are telling people that their time and thoughts are not valued and placing your needs above the common goal and cause.
Jennifer Lau, holistic nutritionist, Nike Canada Master Trainer, and owner of Fit Squad studio
In a fairly male-dominated industry where “size” matters, it is not uncommon for women to find themselves the smaller voice in a room. Unfortunately this leaves women fighting to assert their opinion and be taken seriously while maintaining a fine line between being called “sassy” or “bitchy” for responding to an interruption.
Advice: Be respectful and patient in your communication. Effective communication is a result of listening. Real listening is not “hearing” and just waiting your turn to state your point, but taking in what your female counterpart has to say and responding to her.
Do not allow ego to drive your conversation. There are several successful and extremely knowledgable women who are veterans in the industry because they have worked extremely hard to gain the respect they deserve in our fields.
Jill Andrew, MPP Toronto–St. Paul’s, Official Opposition in Ontario
I am the MPP for Toronto, St. Paul’s, a member of the NDP Official Opposition, and I am the women’s issues and culture critic. The experience that I have had as a Black, queer, fat woman sitting in the legislature is by my sheer embodiment alone, people seem to read that as a welcome mat, to be particularly rude, aggressive, and to call out my assertiveness, to call out my voice and to try and shut me down in the legislature. That’s exactly what what happened today. I was recognizing Women’s History Month, I was recognizing the International Day of the Girl, along with persons day, three, particularly historical moments that address the contributions of women and girls past and present in Ontario, in our nation and globally. And I couldn’t get through my comments, which, ironically, were emphasizing the need for us to amplify women and girls’ voices, you know, and to act in the name of justice and equity. And I could barely get through those words without male members from across the aisle heckling, yelling, trying to speak over me, essentially trying to silence me.
Advice: My advice to men is to listen more, talk less and be a better ally. I think as members of the legislature, yes, of course, we may disagree. But we should be putting forth an image that encourages women and girls to be involved in politics, that encourages Black women, BIPOC women, Indigenous, people of colour, LGBTQ people to get involved in politics.
Nadine Spencer, President and CEO, BrandEQ Strategic Marketing & Communication
I’ve owned several businesses, sat in multiple senior executive positions, I’ve been President of the Junior League of Toronto and am the active President of the Black Business and Professional Association. In working in these roles, I’ve found that there are men who will look at a woman in a position of influence and need to undermine her. Throughout my career, it’s always been incredibly important to me to surround myself with strong and successful women. Mansplaining and being interupted are key issues that women have to face when they’re invited to sit at the table within their industries, and so being a part of companies, corporations, and boards that are fueled by women and have strong allies are incredibly important.
Advice: My advice to men is be an ally. The traits that are associated with women being unqualified for jobs and positions are the ones that make us the strongest. Women are natural nurturers, and when we take this trait and bring it to our work, the passion for what we do is unmatched. This is why a report published in 2019 by S&P Global found that after a new CEO appointment, the stock price for companies that appointed female chief executives outperformed those that appointed men by an average of 20%. There is something women specifically are doing that creates exponential growth in companies. Men who feel the need to interrupt us need to finally recognize that and let us finish when it’s our time to speak.
Samantha Peters, lawyer and educator
I am a dark-skinned Black queer femme and because of anti-Black and homophobic stereotypes of those who look like me, I am often characterized as combative, “passionate,” “strong” and direct the moment that I open my mouth to speak and have an opinion. Men often play “Devil’s advocate,” speak over me and constantly gaslight me whether it’s in a classroom, boardroom, courtroom or virtual space. Despite this, I often rely on teachings from Black feminists like Audre Lorde, who remind me why it is important for Black women to take up space and to speak truth to power.
Advice: Misogynoir (and cyber-misogynoir) is very real and so it is important for men, especially cis-gender white men, to recognize how race, power and gender show up in their interactions with Black women and femmes. Advice? Pause and reflect. Is this an attempt to “mansplain?” Is this something that you can look up yourself? Can your question wait? If you are truly seeking clarification on a matter, ask the question and then give the floor back to the person.
Neha Soni, media and public relations in the non-profit sector
I’ve worked in communications as a PR adviser for women more often than men in leadership positions. It is astounding how each and every one of them has had to say “please let me finish” to not only their male peers, but males in general. I feel even a woman that is prime minister or president would deal with the same issue simply because we’re conditioned to do so and be incredibly patient as well. Is it because they only respect those they can relate to? Is it doubt in skill, is it contempt? It’s about a level of respect given automatically to men versus women.
Advice: The VP debate taught us that women in power don’t have to cede when men speak over us but often do anyway because it’s that male entitlement that allows them to keep blabbering on — not just female silence. Patriarchal conditioning is to blame but in this era, it’s time for men to check themselves and respect a woman at the table.
Adwoa (DW) Armah, Game design
I am a game designer, a Black female game designer ... so I am already a rare occurrence in the industry as it is. Although I love games and gaming as a whole, the looks, stares and lack of respect because I’m a Black girl — that gets very annoying and at this point I’m over it!
One story in particular took place at Square One in front of the Microsoft Store. My friend and I had stopped because there was a huge display of games made by Microsoft. As I walked closer there had been a wall with writing on it of different game titles. On the very top of the wall read: What’s your favourite Microsoft Game Title? My friend and I, both gamers, walked to the wall to inspect what other people had written. Not even 10 seconds later, a random man walks up to the wall, close to my friend and I. Upon me saying the words “Who put-?” The man turns to my friend and I, and speaks so confidently, “Oh, they’re video games if you don’t know.” And then just stares at us, as if we didn’t know! As if I couldn’t read the title on the wall! My friend and I just looked at him, we were so shocked that he had the audacity to assume we didn’t know what the hell we were doing at the game wall. I just remember shaking my head and my friend and I walked away.
Advice: My advice to men is to not assume that women are incompetent because of their gender. Had that man not tried to overtake the conversation he could have made a connect in the Industry
Marni Miller, insurance defence litigation lawyer
I have had many instances of men speaking over me when I am talking at work. When I am conducting an examination for discovery for example, I am the only one permitted to ask questions. I have had numerous exchanges where men (not just older men, often younger men as well) speak over me and continue to cut me off. In those instances, I state on the record, that they are interrupting me, waylaying the examination, and I will not continue until they stop. I mentor, and have mentored, many young women lawyers. My advice to them when they start out is to stand their ground, not get intimidated when a male lawyer tries to drown them out, and remind them that their voice is just as important.
In litigation, and law in general, there is still an “old boys club” that tries to marginalize women. I have made it very clear in these instances that I will not be silenced or spoken over.
Advice: My advice to men about this behaviour is that they come off as arrogant and insensitive. If they want to be successful, they must listen to everyone’s opinion and position. They do not have to agree, but they have to listen. By speaking over women, they show their contempt for that person, and that they view the women they speak over as irrelevant.
Ziya Tong, science broadcaster and author
I was the only full-time female science broadcaster in the country for a decade. Now that Daily Planet is gone, there isn’t even one. There are so few women in STEM on television, that we are more silenced by lack of presence than we are by interruption. You can’t interrupt someone when they aren’t even there.
Advice: Be gracious. Be gentlemen. It’s not too much to expect courteous conduct.
Kimoy Francique, Licensed electrician
It’s pretty consistent. The construction industry is dominated by European males. So the fact that I’m a female, and then on top of that, of African descent, they tend to dismiss ... because I may not know as much and sometimes it’s just stereotype. But my industry is predominantly male. Like for example, my union is 84 per cent European males. I find that the men that I work with on tools are pretty good, but the foremen I work with, they’re consistently interrupting me. They tend to think that you don’t know. Even on simple things, they may not consider other factors. For example, there was a time where a foreman was used to a delivery coming at a certain time, but it was ahead of schedule and I saw it arrive early. I’m letting them know, ‘Hey, I saw the delivery guy outside. He’s ahead of schedule, let’s grab the foreman.’ And when I see the foreman, he immediately interrupts, and that is his pattern with me — if I’m speaking it’s not really important. I think with women in any industry when it’s predominantly males, the stereotypes will follow you through it.
Advice: My advice to men? Honestly, listen. Whatever bias you have, put it aside and just listen. I know that’s hard and maybe too simple but I’m gonna stick with that. The second you listen to somebody you realize that all your preconceived notions are just that, preconceived notions, and I think a lot of people will surprise you.
Angelyn Francis is a Toronto-based reporter for the Star covering inequity and inequality. Her reporting is funded by the Canadian government through its Local Journalism Initiative. Reach her via email: [email protected]
Evelyn Kwong is a Star team editor based in Toronto. Follow her on Twitter: @evystadium
Jenna Moon is a breaking news reporter for the Star and is based in Toronto. Follow her on Twitter: @_jennamoon
